Orienteering and Scouts

Can we encourage scouts to start practicing REAL orienteering rather than map and compass bearing exercises? I think that the effort would be more productive from a national scouting level rather than trying to address this issue at hundreds of local levels. We have not had much success locally. The merit badge requirements were changed back sometime so that they actually reflect real orienteering. Unfortunately, most scouters only know what they were taught in scouts or the military. I think we could really get a lot new interest built if scouts did it the right way (the fun way).

Tom Lamb
Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 61

On Fri, 14 Apr 1995, Murphy Peter wrote:

orienteering from either the Boy Scouts of America or while in the military will only confuse a person about what REAL orienteering is. Could you please elaborate?

glad to, thanks! <;0

My oldest crossed over to Boy Scouts 2 months ago and I thought it would be nice to teach his Troop about O.

Excellent! They *need* the help! Make it fun!

and my kids have not been exposed to the sport until now. The merit badge requirements look like they focus on competitive orienteering. Some of the map and compass requirements for various ranks (such as First Class) are not focused on the sport but rather on finding your way in the wilderness though it does use the term "orienteer" as part of the heading.

Its based on the SKILLS of Orienteering. Note Capital 'O' defined as the sport of land navigation. [NOT to be confused with Scout]

After 2 classroom sessions with the Troop I will be taking them camping next weekend to another state and participate in a Scout-O that was listed in O/NA.

Is that DVOA's (Deleware Valley O Association) by Ed Scott? Even if so or not, Ed should be dropping into this thread any time now! Regardless, this is an incredibly excellent opportunity!

For my own family, we hiked a permanent O course near here for practice. The 11-year old and 8-year old taking turns with the map and compass leading the rest of us. The 6-year old just hiked along. Tomorrow the whole family will go to a club meet in the next state over and I plan for all 5 of us to run a course.

Perfect!!! I'd like an informal 'meet report' from you after it.

I said I learned O in ROTC. I remember the department hosting... I'm sure there O-Netter out there who can comment on this

Am I being completely naive? Is there something major I am missing? If there is I will probably find out at the club event tomorrow.

Obviously, I don't know exactly what's happening in your BSA Council and it sounds like you have some excellent opportunities and support structure for developing what I call 'real Orienteering'. The afore-mentioned Ed Scott has the most excellent Scout-O event and has recently written a lesson plan for the merit badge.

The problem is that despite the new change in the BSA requirements for orienteering skills, National BSA headquarters in Irving TX really dropped the ball when it came to implementing the new reqs. Standards are not set and reference to USOF (not to mention IOF--ha!) is missing. Even the leadership training courses in some cases such as theultimate huge advanced course "Woodbadge", map & compass exersizes are based on pacing on compass bearings.

The classic BSA map & compass skills that have been taught for *scores* of years is a mathematical (actually geometry) exercise taking compass bearings (one practice game/exercise had you put a sack over your head so you could only look down at your compass) and measuring off linear distances on these bearing vecors... BORING!!! and useless! Because these 'surveying skills' are only useful when starting from a known point and they ignore the land. Old fashioned BSA map&compass does NOT teach you to find your way (except there was also map reading reqs so it wasn't a total waste of time) That's kinda harsh, there. In the 2-3 years I spent advancing from Tenderfoot to First Class, I did pick up a good working knowledge on map & compass and went beyond the reqs to practice my land navigation because I enjoyed so much. Also, these 'surveying skills' that I'm trashing actually are very useful when it comes to actual map construction. My interest in map&compass skills expanded into cartography such that at one point in my life I landed a cartographer job at the County without a single geog. or drafting course (this was back in the pre-computer good 'ol pen & ink days!)

The point is, I really enjoyed geometry!!! But just how many students can honestly say they enjoy it? Either then or now. Few.

Sooooo. BSA still has a lot of Scouters coasting on the old 'survey skill' BSA map&compass and National is doing anything to train them! Guess who is in position to train them? Orienteers.

The problem is that BSA is a huge blob that sticks. Changes very slowly and I've personally found a lot of resistance. Actually just being ignored! But contrary to the opinion of some orienteers, I feel its worth the effort to ***sloooooowly* bring BSA up to speed!!!

I want to plan and conduct an O event for my BSA council. That means it will be open to 10,000+ Boy Scouts in our 19 county area. If I'm way off base then I need some direction soon.

hmmmm. can't say. Don't know your local region. Your local BSA Council may be farther along than others... Is this the first O-vent put on for the Council? I'd promote it a year in advance if possible.

Ed?

I've selected a site but map creation will be a challenge.

always is, but FUN! especially if you get some help! and OCAD!

Peter Murphy
Carmel, Indiana
murphyp@tcemail.indy.tce.com

Thanks for posting! Good to hear from you!

Yours in Scouting,

Terradan Landchild
President, Columbia River O Club, Vancouver, WA/Portland OR
Eagle Scout, 1969
WE1-492-90

There has been a little discussion of Scouts in Orienteering and I have a few comments.

from Terradan... DON'T contact the Boy Scouts to learn orienteering! They are still back in the dark ages of surveying skills and are totally lost (literally!) on orienteering.

Yes, most of the troops in the country are, but there are a few that are very active and very good at the sport. It is no coincidence that the troops that are good area the ones that have an Orienteering club nearby and take advantage of the chance to orienteer on a regular basis. John Campbell finished fourth at the recent QOC A meet on blue M21. He is being trained by West Point, but he got his start as a boy scout in Lititz Pa. On the junior team list find Isaac Karasin and David Kappenstein. Both are members of Troop 529 of Gibraltar Pa, which has attended DVOA events regularly for 6 years. I'm sure QOC and probably BAOC and SLOC can cite similar examples from their Scout event attendees. The bottom line is that scouts can be good at orienteering if we can get them to our events, and that they will never be worth squat if they try to learn from their own literature.

There is a bright spot. The GIRL scouts have a nice program that is much closer to real orienteering than the boys version. In my annual scout event the girls are showing steady improvement. Last spring the Senior Girl Scouts beat the Eagle Boy Scouts on the same course. Perhaps after a few years of getting their noses rubbed in the dirt, the boys will notice what is going on.

.....and from Tom Lamb...Can we encourage scouts to start practicing REAL orienteering rather than map and compass bearing exercises? I think that the effort would be more productive from a national scouting level rather than trying to address this issue at hundreds of local levels. ....... Unfortunately, most scouters only know what they were taught in scouts or the military. .... new interest built if scouts did it the right way (the fun way). Tom Lamb Assist. SM, T- 61

Good idea and we have tried, but as Scouting Development Coordinator for USOF I have not been able to get any response from BSA in Dallas. I send proposed revisions of the Merit Badge pamphlet to them and they do not respond. Some of our suggestions do get into print, but I never know about it until I see the finished pamphlet for sale. Another problem is that the Venture program, the Merit Badge program, and the leaders training information don't even agree with each other in their presentation of orienteering. I think that until we find someone at the national level of the BSA who has an interest in providing a good program for the boys, our time will be better spent with the boys in the troops that have good local leadership. I have received about 80 inquires from scouts over the past 8 weeks. I don't get many from areas where the local club is promoting Orienteering with scouts. Scout leaders don't look to Dallas for direction, they tap into local resources.

Of course we don't cover the whole country, but I would wager 75 % of all Boy Scouts in the US are within 100 miles of a local club....Ed Scott .....

PS if someone out there would like to see my proposed revision to the existing Merit Badge pamphlet I would be glad to e-mail you a copy (4 pg)

I was a Scoutmaster for six years, and during that time I owed another Scouter a thank-you debt. He had put in a good word with the folks at the National level which resulted in my being chosen to be an adult leader to go to a Scouting event in Australia. The old-boy system at work, I suppose. I was qualified, btw.

Anyway, I asked him what I could do to thank him. He said "attend Woodbadge." Woodbadge is an eight day class on how to be a Scout leader. I didn't think I needed it, after all, I'd just led 36 boys to Australia for three weeks, but I took it because, well, because he asked me to.

The first day there we all met in this big field, were divided up into patrols and given a 3x5 card. It hard 5 compass bearings followed by five distances written on it. They said "these are the directions to your campsite for the next 8 days." We got there, eventually(this committee thing was tough, six men who all insisted they knew how to do everything--anyway, that was a part of the learning process too).

But this was the ONLY map and compass work(notice, no map) we did the entire time, and they kept referring to it as our orienteering exercise.

My point is that this is how adult scout leaders are being taught to orienteer, and until WE, folks that know that is a method of land navigation but not orienteering, teach more Scouters what orienteering really is, that is how they will continue to be taught.

I petitioned the instructors to give a short presentation on orienteering at the end of our week long class. I just happened to have some maps and a thumb compass in the car[:-)] and so was able to try and show the group I was in what orienteering is all about.

-Doug Corkhill
Backwoods Orienteering Klub
Raleigh, North Carolina

Peter Murphy (murphyp@tcemail.indy.tce.com) has eloquently described his concerns about a frequently-voiced attitude that neither the military nor Scouting is able to teach 'true' orienteering.

Peter, I think many of us in the orienteering community remember our first exposure to 'land navigation' in basic-training, and what used to pass for map-and-compass skills in Scouting (there are a lot of us dinosaurs here).

From my discussions with others, I think most of us had superficial training that did not prepare us for orienteering. However, both the U.S. military and Scouting groups have improved considerably, though not universally. The new merit-badge requirements are surprisingly well-written, though few districts have any merit-badge advisors who know enough about the sport to evaluate the scout's performance in meeting those requirements, yet some Scout districts have been very successfull introducing 'real' orienteering to their troops. Several Scout O-meets are described every year in O/NA magazine, and I often see Scout groups (Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts) at our local meets (BAOC). Our club even holds an annual inter-troop competition which enjoys large participation.

I would guess that most Scout districts which resist formal orienteering do so because the older Scouters are not familiar with the sport themselves and no one likes to have their ignorance exposed. I met similar resistance when I tried to introduce orienteering training to the adult Scout leaders in my council, though I was finally successful. A recent post to this net from John Edwards did an excellent job of describing his techniques to introduce change to the entrenched Scouting leadership. If you missed his post, e-mail me privately and I will forward.

Re: military training

They have made remarkable changes teaching navigation skills in just the last few years, though most of us are too old to have experienced it. I have been involved recently with Air Force search-and-rescue training, and they teach the same navigation *tactics* we use in orienteering, though not necessarily with formal O-courses using tri-sided orange and white control markers. The academies especially have aggressively taught modern O-skills.

Your desire to plan and conduct a *major* BSA O-meet is wonderful, and I hope you can recruit a local O-club to assist you with mapping and meet planning. It should be good for both BSA and the local club.

If you think I can be of any help, please e-mail me privately.

John Miller (jmiller@wdl.loral.com)

Murphy Peter (MurphyP@rnd3.indy.tce.com) wrote:

I want to plan and conduct an O event for my BSA council. That means it will be open to 10,000+ Boy Scouts in our 19 county area. If I'm way off base then I need some direction soon. I've selected a site but map creation will be a challenge.

You may want to check with other O clubs or federations for tips. The local Bay Area Orienteering Club does an annual Scout-O in November.

There is a World Wide Web page at

http://www2.aos.princeton.edu/rdslater/orienteering/orienteering.html

which has information on federations and clubs around the world.

Alan R. Houser ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley Troop 24 ** troop24@emf.net
** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html **

There have been several post which stated that learning orienteering from either the Boy Scouts of America or while in the military will only confuse a person about what REAL orienteering is. Could you please elaborate? My oldest crossed over to Boy Scouts 2 months ago and I thought it would be nice to teach his Troop about O. I haven't done any sine college (ROTC exactly - more on that later) and my kids have not been exposed to the sport until now. The merit badge requirements look like they focus on competitive orienteering. Some of the map and compass requirements for various ranks (such as First Class) are not focused on the sport but rather on finding your way in the wilderness though it does use the term "orienteer" as part of the heading.

After 2 classroom sessions with the Troop I will be taking them camping next weekend to another state and participate in a Scout-O that was listed in O/NA. For my own family, we hiked a permanent O course near here for practice. The 11-year old and 8-year old taking turns with the map and compass leading the rest of us. The 6-year old just hiked along. Tomorrow the whole family will go to a club meet in the next state over and I plan for all 5 of us to run a course.

I said I learned O in ROTC. I remember the department hosting a couple of open meets for the college just to give us some practice. They called it a Red course. It was a cross-country style event, staggered starts, tri-sided orange and white control markers with punches. I remember the class room training included discussion of collection features, attack points, and hand rails. Later in the military we conducted training that was run just like I understand an O meet to be.

Am I being completely naive? Is there something major I am missing? If there is I will probably find out at the club event tomorrow. I want to plan and conduct an O event for my BSA council. That means it will be open to 10,000+ Boy Scouts in our 19 county area. If I'm way off base then I need some direction soon. I've selected a site but map creation will be a challenge.

Peter Murphy
Carmel, Indiana
murphyp@tcemail.indy.tce.com

Tom Lamb:
I think that the effort would be more productive from a national scouting level rather than trying to address this issue at hundreds of local levels. We have not had much success locally.

Getting details like Orienteering reqs through National can be more than a bit daunting, Tom. I am of the opinion that acting on the local level is still the best way, despite the road blocks. I tackled some similar problems a few years back with a Confidence Course (ala Outward Bound and the like) for Cub Scouts. In particular, I would suggest a few things that will allow you to be more effective at the local level (these worked for me).

1. Find the youngest District Exec in your Council, and figure out what Council-wide events he will be planning over the next year. If he is your own District's exec, all the better.

2. Get this young boat rocker educated in the details that you see missing from the program, and look for ways to work them into EXISTING Council events. Slowly -- don't snowplow the whole council at once. Do a demo at the Spring Camporee, a station at the Klondike, something that can introduce young people to the kind of thing you're interested in.

3. Get plenty of volunteer help for when he needs it. District execs are dying to find new things to do, but have to remain within the basic program structures provided to them from higher up the food chain. If you can provide them with expertise (in particular, experienced volunteers that are easy to work with -- pick your best folks!), and some good program ideas that will fit into existing events, you may be able to turn the corner on your local District's or Council's view of Orienteering. Then, educated scouts turn into Summer Camp teachers and it ripples through the entire program in four or five years.

For the Confidence Course, I built a seven foot wall that the cub den had to get themselves over -- an idea stolen, granted, from Outward Bound, with the height lowered to reasonable eight year old levels. It was a small, simple idea that could be accomplished in a "eight-year-old attention span" time frame, so it worked nicely with the existing Cub camp program structure -- one that required one hour stations all day for each of five days. In addition, I made sure I had a couple of dedicated volunteers there to spot the kids as they went over. The DE had one less event to worry about, and the basic ideas of leadership and teamwork were impressed upon the cubs.

The idea was small, but it proved useful for getting the Council folks into a mind set of challenging the Cubs from a team/mind/body kind of angle, and since then a different "Confidence" idea has been presented each year. Orienteering will probably blossom much more than that, since it fits in so well with other scouting events, and you're gearing it towards older kids.

Let me know if things work out well. I'm always looking for success stories.

John L. Edwards
Annapolis, MD, USA
edwardsj@jsc.mil
410.573.7592 Voice
410.573.7634 Fax

(From: jmiller@wdl.loral.com (John Miller)
(Date: Fri, 14 Apr 95 15:58:51 PDT
(Subject: Re: What's Wrong with BSA and Military

(Peter Murphy (murphyp@tcemail.indy.tce.com) has eloquently
(described his
(concerns about a frequently-voiced attitude that neither the military
(nor
(Scouting is able to teach 'true' orienteering.

There has sure been some good constructive discussion on this subject. Here is a little more. It seems to me that:

a. BSA groups that I come in contact are very interested in "O"ing, "as we know it", have so many activities to be concerned with that "O"ing is just another one. Therefore, our club and meets are used just to get the merit badge requirements accomplished and then they go on to other things. How can we get them back after they have they have accomplished the merit badge requirements? I don't know.

The military(College ROTC) was very active in promoting and sponsoring "real" "O"ing meets ten years or so ago. Then someone at Hq. level, I guess, decided that "Ranger Challenge" was to be emphasize and that "O"ing was now "Land Navigation" and was just a part of the "Ranger Challenge" program. All the college ROTCs around here, four of them, then quit sponsoring "O"ing meets and would only refer to anything to do with land navigation as "Land Navigation" and not Orienteering. This was not true of Texas A & M, who as an active "O"ing club. What to do about it? I don't know.

The military (High School Junior ROTC) is very active in this part of the country. In September 94, we had 720 runners at a club meet. A good 650 were Jr. ROTC. They are our "paying customers". The problem here is that very few of the high school members continue "O"ing after high school. What to do about it? I don't know.

The work "priority" keeps coming up in my mind. For many of us, Orienteering in on the priority list just below Good Lord and family. For many, that is not true. It seems to me that other requirements of the Military and BSA will have to be met and incorporated into "O"ing. Many of the ideas that have been presented on this discussion seem to point in that direction very well. Keep up the good work. Jim

As a Scout, I first learned about "real" orienteering at the 1985 National Scout Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia. They had an actual orienteering course, with controls, O-map, and all, set-up at the south side of camp, a camp filled with about 32,000 Scouts from across the nation. I gather that it was a yellow meet. We got the map, they started and timed us like a real meet, and we had less than three hours to finish. I loved it. I learned that day that orienteering in its purest sense was not what I was taught when I earned the skill award as a Tenderfoot. It was a great deal of fun!

Now I have been doing "real" orienteering with the USMAPS and USMAOC clubs for the last three years, and doing pretty well. I owe my navigational skills to Scouting. I owe my interest in the sport to Scouting. Had it not been for Scouting, I wouldn't even know what it was, much less have pursued an interest in the sport later in life. I just wanted everyone to know that there is, or at least there has been, an awareness of what "real" orienteering is at the National level, and that Scouting does at least open the door for boys to pursue it later in life. It is certainly better that BSA has a program called "Orienteering" that is not necessarily correct, than for them to have no program whatsoever.

Paul Cole
USMAOC

P.S. "Captain" Wittpenn is no longer a CPT. He was promoted to Major in January. For those of you who are confused, there is hope: please note that he'll get promoted to "Mister" Wittpenn this summer. ;)

(1) One thing that both the scout and the orienteering communities need to understand is that when the scout program was developed there was no competitive Orienteering in the US. Bjorn Kjellstrom came into a new market with a new product and needed sales. The Boy Scouts, with much input from Bjorn developed the program. There were no O maps, so the activity was geared to USGS maps often from the old 15 minute series. The maps were poor so the compass became the primary tool. The Scout program will change, it is just very frustrating to see them 25 years behind.

(2) Scout leaders last about 5 years. Of course there are a few career Scoutmasters, but the vast majority come in with their son, become Scoutmaster after a year or two, and go on to other activities when the son is 18 and out of the program. This means the local club needs to make an effort to train these new leaders before someone else gets to them. Our council, and I assume others, have outdoor leader training about once a year.

Volunteer to teach the Orienteering portion for them. Draw a black and white map of the camp and show them how much fun it will be for them. If they like the sport, they will have the boys out often. Those boys will be the next generation of scout leaders.

In article (2F8EFF0E@MSMAIL.INDY.TCE.COM), Murphy Peter (MurphyP@rnd3.indy.tce.com) wrote:

competitive orienteering. Some of the map and compass requirements for various ranks (such as First Class) are not focused on the sport but rather on finding your way in the wilderness though it does use the term "orienteer" as part of the heading.

So what does that First Class requirement mean when it says: "Using a compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least 1 mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.)"?

The requirement has a reference to a discussion in the Scout Handbook about taking a hike using a map. As it says in the handbook, "Look for roads and trails. They offer the easiest walking, but not necessarily the quickest or most interesting way to go."

Bob Fulton
robert.fulton@giz.com

I'm sorry, but when I saw Mr. Tarradan's posting about "9 years of frustration," I had to post again.

Just because the Boy Scouts of America as an institution does not have a reasonable orienteering program does not make it a bad group of people! The Boy Scouts take in a lot of kids who might would be otherwise be in a lot of trouble. They clean up our streets. They teach our kids how to work as a team, and how to strive to achieve what is valuable in life. They foster a caring attitude in young men by providing them with positive role models that they otherwise might not have had. The teach boys valuable ethics. They create in boys' hearts a patriotism in their country that is so lacking in society today. They give them an opportunity in life, an opportunity that they might not have been afforded otherwise. Most of all, the Boy Scouts create what is so necessary in todays' world: real men who do their best and who aren't afraid to try to do the right thing. Let's not write off American Scouting simply because it has a less-than-desirable Orienteering program.

Paul Cole
USMAOC

Yes, our club (CROC in Vancouver, WA/Portland, OR) is available to assist with Scouts. I'm sure all USOF clubs are. In fact, we have put on the Council High Adventure Seminar on Orienteering for 3-4 years now and have offered a class at the Council Adult Training Pow-Wow and have tried to get our schedule into the council newsletter... I personally have 'preached the gospel of Orienteering' to my District Roundtable EVERY MONTH for about 2-3 years now. ---RESPONSE NEARLY ZERO---

With well over 2000 (two thousand!) BSA Troops in this council, we simply can't make a personal visit to each one. And there is absolutely NO need to--they can come to a meet that is already set up & ready! Only about a dozen troops have tried it.

The problem is that Scouters just don't realize how badly they are missing out & how bad their O program really is. & therefore they don't care and don't bother to come to meets. Unbelievable to me. I am ready to hang up the 'ol BSA uniform (with enough badges & awards to make me look like a mexican general) and quit after 9 years of mostly frustration.

From Robert Fulton.....First class requirement......"Using a compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least 1 mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.)"?

This sentence is representative of exactly what we are talking about. Note there is no map. The scout only needs the compass to complete the "orienteering course". Next he stops along the way and does a triangulation exercize using degrees and pacing between two points to get the distance across a canyon. Nice for geometry class but really doesn't do much for your orienteering skills. You can bend the rules and let them use the map scale to determine the canyon. ..Ed Scott

Paul Cole writes...I first learned about "real" orienteering at the 1985 National Scout Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia. They....

I assume you were too young to realize it, but I believe the "they" you refer to was Quantico Orienteering Club not BSA. Can Sid or Don provide more details ??... Ed Scott

Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions. I still owe some of you a private post. I understand the concern about teaching surveying skills and calling that orienteering. I see that in the BSA handbook. When I started teaching O at my son's Troop, the Scoutmaster suggested I design a compass exercise that required pacing distances at different headings and ending up back at the starting point. I opted for something else. Of course the map reading skills and even survey skills taught in the BSA program are necessary for the larger theme of finding your way - it is misleading to call it orienteering.

So last Saturday I took my 11-year old Boy Scout to a club meet in Cincinnati (my Cub Scout son chickened out at the last minute). He (the Boy Scout) wanted me to run the White course with him since he had never been to an Orienteering event before. After finishing it in 16:46 (fastest time of day was 9:09) with very little help he decided to try the Yellow course on his own while I ran the Brown course (it's been 17 years so I started easy). He enjoyed it and looks forward to more events in the future. So this coming weekend I'm taking his whole Troop camping in Ohio and on Sunday we'll all go to a club event near Dayton.

To answer my own question, there is very little difference between the way my wife and I learned orienteering in ROTC 17 years ago and what I saw at the club event this weekend. 17 years ago we did not learn about symbolic clue sheets but I've been studying lots of books to help me teach the merit badge so I wasn't caught by surprise on Saturday. The only surprise I had was when the clue sheet said "gully" it meant the flag was at the bottom of a hole in the ground that was only a meter in diameter.

Again, thanks for your concern and comments.

Peter Murphy
Carmel, Indiana (suburb of Indianapolis)
murphyp@tcemail.indy.tce.com

Tom Lamb started it all, inncoently enough, by writing:
Can we encourage scouts to start practicing REAL Orienteering rather than....

Yes, we can. HOW we do it, and HOW we can do it SUCCESSFULLY is a much larger issue.

Here in the US, the US O' Federation, probably ought to be the source of authoritative material to be distributed to council camps, where most of the damage is done. I believe the damage is extensive, and we may already have lost, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Much O-net traffic has occurred in the last few days on this subject. I don't have space to deal with all of it item by item. It would take a book. Lots of the comments were good, esp. Murphy, Edwards and Scott. Meenahan defends scout programs with a sound perspective.

However, since apparently many of you out there have a burr under the saddle on this issue, here goes my contribution on the BSA/GSA aspects. Let me say that I am an Orienteering merit badge counselor in my local BSA Council. I've made maps for two local BSA councils, and one GSA council. I find much to be proud of in scouting programs and scout leaders' efforts. Nevertheless, this whole subject makes my blood boil, because I know so many scout leaders who do it right, working with the same information possessed by the other 98% of leaders who continue to do it wrong. Why the difference? The ones who do it right have taken the effort to inform themselves, by asking O'ers about it, by reading the material at hand, and by bravely learning something in parallel with their scouts.

I have recently used the following analogy to highlight the dilemma O'ers face.

In the game of baseball, flexibility and agility are so important to playing the game well, that all serious teams include calisthenics in their training and stretching exercises before every game. Now imagine that people calling themselves baseball coaches go to a place where they have never played baseball and begin teaching calisthenics. We would consider it laughable, pitiable, if these 'coaches' were to refer to these exercises as baseball. Yet that is exactly what Orienteering has had to contend with for years when faced with legions of scout leaders who teach compass and pacing exercises and call it orienteering. Yes, compass skills are most helpful in the sport, but no, it does not constitute either the essence of the sport or even a necessary part. Worse, the compass skills being taught, with the bag over the head, or the directions printed on a 3x5 card, are not even relevant to good compass navigation.

None of the O-net respondents thus far have put their finger on what I believe to be the principal, and on-going, obstruction to any progress. Let me be the first to risk the wrath of the protectors of a myth, common here in the US, that we have SIlva to thank for our O' success thus far. I believe the contrary is true. We have every compass manufacturer (as far as I can tell, I may be wrong), to Blame for the misinformation about O' that is almost universal in the US. The materials circulated with compass sets purchased by parks and recreation centers and scouting camps have set the tone for more than a generation, and in fact was probably built on faulty traditions from the military. That tone, whatever the specifics of the materials, (a much of it superficially appears to be good for O') has nevertheless allowed users to proceed comfortably with the idea that compass-and-pace is O'. I realize these information packages, and even the classic texts on the subject of map and compass, discuss the game of O' in a passable fashion, but so much emphasis is on the compass and its 'proper use', that the Implicit Message is that compass-and-pace is OK.

That message has been destructive to the growth of O' in the US for three reasons.

First, to teach compass use using protractor compasses is pedagogically unsound (also not so hot for grownups) whenever such instruction precedes outdoor experiences involving navigation by map reading. Always and forever, any lasting lesson in the use of compass to obtain and follow azimuths, either rough or precision, must be built upon an Experience Base of field walks using maps, such as (Exactly as!) the introductory O' courses offer. This correct sequence has as its objective Map Literacy in its broadest sense and O' in particular, so that what we as O'ers mean by navigation is not at all what the azimuth shooters mean by navigation. Whenever compass-and-pace is taught first, it becomes an abstraction, with no frame of reference to which the student can relate the process. Therefore, teach O' first - as a map reading navigational game, then when that experience has been absorbed, the USE of the compass as a tool will make sense. At that point in the learning, and only at that point, will the compass lesson be retained.

Second, teaching wrong lessons at the wrong time has proven destructive when it is obvious that almost none of the scouts, (or most of their leaders) can actually demonstrate compass use, after having claimed to have experience in what they call O', but which was merely compass-and-pace. The proof of the futility of this process lies in the fact that compass-and-pace was ALL that they were supposed to be learning and they don't even get that. Therefore how can they be expected to function as ambassadors of O' as it hopefully grows.

Third, the wrong teaching of a wrong game leaves a bad taste for it in the minds of those who go through life saying,"Yeah I've done that at scout camp". And when they say it they use the same tone of voice as they use for describing painting the garage. Most scouts who experience compass-and-pace exercises do not really want to do it again, and when they hear about your local O' event, they have little interest in participating in something they found boring and frustrating at scout camp.

The audience reached by the compass companies through their commercial efforts is a hundred times that reached by our dinky little dirt-poor volunteer Federation. The rate of positive experiences within their audience has been so pitifully low, and their rate of negative impact so phenomenally high, that our efforts to grow in O' have to overcome both a general unfamiliarity, which is bad enough, but also the frankly negative groundwork laid by the azimuth shooters.

So, are we grateful for the support extended to USOF over the years by Silva? Of course. Could it have been done differently, so as to have better enhanced the growth and popularity of O'? Yes, but I must quickly add that I'm certain none of what I refer to above as "damage" was at all intentional, or even foreseen, or even yet in any way appreciated. Everyone always thought they were helping, even the teachers of the wrong game. Please don't accuse me of accusing anyone of base motives. My purpose is to debunk the myth that widespread use of compass and pace exercises has been of any help to O', and to present a new perspective on some taken-for-granted ideas of how to teach Navigation and map literacy.

My proposal is three fold:

1) Urge Karl Kolva, who is currently planning a schools oriented program for the US, working within USOF, to consider a counterpart effort, executed in parallel with the schools , for scout councils and camps and parks and recreational facilities, explaining what real O' is, and offering the assistance of local clubs in preparing serviceable maps and setting up real courses.

2) Urge Ed Scott, or someone he might designate, to continue to push BSA in Dallas, and the GSA counterpart, wherever they are, to incorporate, however gradually, the USOF/Kolva efforts, and coordinate program upgrades.

3) USOF should prepare a package of "Orienteering" materials for sale at a profit, to be advertised in the very same parks & recreation catalogs as now carry the compass kits, and if possible advertise RIGHT NEXT TO the compass kits. If you've seen these catalogs, there are literally PAGES of compasses advertised, and every park staff in the country has one.

Sooo.... this text gets sent to them right away, and also to my local scouts contacts here in FL, to solicit their ideas.

Bob Putnam, FLO (praying all of this will be taken in a positive spirit.)

All in all, I think the critical issue that the Boy Scouts is trying to get across is the ability to get yourself out of the woods in one piece. Granted, what they teach currently is the most rudimentary set of skills in order to accomplish this, but keep in mind that the BSA is also attempting to teach camping, community citizenship, leadership, scholarship, and about 100 other "-ships" -- consequently leaving very little time for any one subject to be examined to the extent that it really deserves. Most scouting topics get one evening's worth of coverage each year, and maybe an afternoon on a weekend trip. Orienteering gets thrown into this cluttered picture.

I have worked with the Boy Scouts in the past, and found it most effective to take the basic orienteering skills and cross-pollenate them with other BSA topics. I taught Wilderness Survival to Boy Scouts for many years, and found that the #1 thing to teach my students was to not get lost in the first place, and the basic Orienteering skills fell into place there. In order to get deeper details for O into place, I crossed them with survival skills. Teaching a kid how to determine where water will pool on a topographic map (especially where I'm from, the mountains of Central PA) goes a long way towards getting him to understand the fundamental connections between the map and the terrain it describes. Once the scout learns to visualize terrain by looking at maps, the real O learning can begin.

Someone mentioned Wood Badge earlier. My first comment is "Go to Wood Badge!" If you're a scout leader, you need it. My second comment is this: Provide the same situation for your scouts that they did for you, but instead of a compass and bearings, hand them just a map, and tell them, "You are somewhere on this map. Our dinner is at the bottom of this gully shown here on the map. I'll start the fire, you guys go get dinner. We eat when you get back" My Wilderness Survival guys very quickly figured out how to read a map, how to orient a map, and how to take the fast (and easy) route to dinner. I ate late some nights, but I always ate.

Again, being in the mountains helps a little bit due to the nice fat landmarks.

By the way, I talked to my friend the DE, and he said that there is a serious O course going in at Caledonia State Park for the Boy Scouts -- South Central PA, York-Adams Council. Don't know more than that about it, but he said he got a look at the map and that it was extremely detailed. You might want to give those folks a call if you're setting up a course, they may have some good "lessons learned" info.

John L. Edwards
Annapolis, MD, USA
edwardsj@jsc.mil
410.573.7592 Voice
410.573.7634 Fax

In article (9504171154.AA03801@sun.aitc.rest.tasc.com), Michael M. Meenehan (meenehmm@sun.aitc.rest.tasc.com) wrote:

I could go on, but in closing, let your local districts (Scout roundtables are monthly program planning meetings for local scouters) know that you are a resource for them & make it easy for them to participate.

Just wondering if anyone else has had the same experience with this as I have. I've been to monthly roundtables(meetings in a district or area of just adult leaders) and spoken about orienteering. I've been invited to speak, also made myself available to speak. I take O maps, schedules, talk about the differences between Oing and walking a straight line while pace counting(although I sometimes do that while Oing), give them the usual pep talk.

We've seen very little response from Scout groups as a result of these efforts. Maybe its me. :-)

One note, they are always amazed by my thumb compass. Most asked question: "How can you tell which way to go if it doesn't have any degrees marked on it?"

-Doug Corkhill, O nerd and former Scoutmaster

I've been lurking on this list for a while now but the thread about orienteering and BSA has caused me to jump in with a comment.

Speaking from experience, my interest in Orienteering was started from my experience in scouting back in the early 1970's (even before the O merit badge was available). After the introduction to the outdoors that I received through scouting I was "ripe" for the sport of orienteering. I then jumped into O with both feet just as it was becoming a little more popular in this country.

Since I have been involved as a scout leader for the past few years I also see things from the BSA perspective. IMHO one of the largest aspects is the ease with wich an activity can be presented to youth. Most of the readers of this list are "O nerds" :) who spend a considerable amount of time on the sport. The BSA program is very balanced in the variety of activities that it presents to youth. O is an excellent activity that fits well with BSA goals, but there are a lot more activities that don't require the extreme preparation time that O does (if you have to make a map, design courses, etc.).

For O to be successful in the BSA program, USOF and local clubs need to be available as resources for units. A lot of units plan annual programs where activities are scheduled for the next year. Is your meet schedule available for the next year? If a unit already has something planned for the weekend that you have a meet scheduled, your activity will not be attended by them.

I could go on, but in closing, let your local districts (Scout roundtables are monthly program planning meetings for local scouters) know that you are a resource for them & make it easy for them to participate.

Mike Meenehan
mmmeenehan@tasc.com

so Silva put on the Orienteering demo at the 1985 National Jambo? hmmmm. You know, they have stuck with Ft. AP Hill for several National Jamborees now, perhaps a USOF club would like to make sure a course is provided?

yes expert Orienteers need to make themselves available to teach 'real' Orienteering...and yes, the Scoutmaster (& Scouters, in general) are very busy [I know from personal experience] so they don't have time to learn a lot of new skills so they can teach their boys.

however, when we offer ready-made O courses on ready-made (at GREAT effort & expense) maps...... how come they simply DON'T show up with their boys?

On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Cole Paul CDT wrote:

I'm sorry, but when I saw Mr. Tarradan's posting about "9 years of frustration," I had to post again.

excuse me 'Mr. Paul', but that's "Terradan" as in Terradan Landchild, thanx!

Just because the Boy Scouts of America as an institution does not have a reasonable orienteering program does not make it a bad group of people!

Agreed. Damn stubborn, sometimes, but not bad.

The Boy Scouts take in a lot of kids who might would be otherwise be in a lot of trouble.

hmmmm. OK, but I feel the BSA is more of a program to make good kids GREAT, rather than to turn bad kids good. whatever/however you want to define those broadbrush terms!

They clean up our streets. They teach our kids how to work as a team, and how to strive to achieve what is valuable in life. They foster a caring attitude in young men by providing them with positive role models that they otherwise might not have had. The teach boys valuable ethics. They create in boys' hearts a patriotism in their country that is so lacking in society today. They give them an opportunity in life, an opportunity that they might not have been afforded otherwise. Most of all, the Boy Scouts create what is so necessary in todays' world: real men who do their best and who aren't afraid to try to do the right thing.

True, True, True, True & True. True. Most of all, TRUE! Hey, I simply 'lived' Scouting for several of those 9 years! I think Scouting deserves to thrive--shoot, it could be manditory! (just kidding--but I believe Scouting brings out the BEST! An opportunity to be EXCELLENT! Scouting is MUCH more important than any athletic organization, make that O or the Almighty Little League! ;)

BUT, For this to be True, Scouting must maintain the highest standards! The highest priority MUST be a QUALITY PROGRAM. Now, National & your local Councils are claiming this--that is they say the right words. And of course the VOLUNTEERS are giving it their all (in the best cases) And of course they are trying to do an awful lot--program for body, mind & soul. BUT while they claim to have program quality made/done deal, they perhaps are resting on their laurels, so to speak. The 'ol bottom line of BUCKS seems to be the guiding force in the BSA. It translates in the BSA's push for NUMBERS-- more troops, more Scouts, more & faster advancement. Quantity NOT neccessarily QUALITY. Even "Quality Unit" programs (which I obviously approve of) have sections on basic numbers, growth. You are probably familiar with "First Class in 1 Year" pushed by National. Now come on, a First Class Scout is *supposed* to be a funtional skill-trained Boy Scout who can take care of himself camping. It took me 3 years in the mid-sixties and I made Eagle by 16! These days you can begin in a Boy Scout troop at age 10 1/2, so National thinks a boy can become a First Class Scout by age 11 1/2 or 12? Come on people!

I've seen a LOT of badges being 'handed out like candy'. Summer Camps, while an incredible experiences as always (esp. here in CPC) are also known as 'merit badge factories' where important reqs/standards are being ignored in the interest of giving out lots of awards!

Let's not write off American Scouting simply because it has a less-than-desirable Orienteering program.
Paul Cole
USMAOC

I agree. As I have earlier expressed, I believe it IS worth the effort to try to increase 'Real' Orienteering awareness in the BSA. And the organization does have a great program even if the folks at National and at Council-level seem to be blind & deaf sometimes.

Terradan Landchild
Eagle Scout 1969
WE1-492-90 Bear
President, CROC

On Mon, 17 Apr 1995 Ed Scott, Scottdvoa@aol.com wrote:

First class requirement......"Using a compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least 1 mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.)"?]]]]] This sentence is representative of exactly what we are talking about. Note there is no map. The scout only needs the compass to complete the "orienteering course".

Exactly, I teach my Scouts to use a baseplate compass with a folding mirror/cover so they can open it up like the communicators on Star Trek, the original series, and ask their orbiting starship to either beam them up or tell them where they are....(makes an ok teaching joke, anyway)

Seriously, whenever I teach an intro to Scouts or any beginners at an orienteering meet, I run them thru 'orienting your map with a compass' and then when the map lines up 'with the real world', I toss the compass over my shoulder behind me without even looking at where it falls (literally, I toss it into grass--its rugged) and then sternly tell the group "Now, read the map"!

Next he stops along the way and does a triangulation exercize using degrees and pacing between two points to get the distance across a canyon. Nice for geometry class but really doesn't do much for your orienteering skills. You can bend the rules and let them use the map scale to determine the canyon. ..Ed Scott

What do you think of 'bending the rules' and having them measure the length of a paced distance (one of the tools/method taught in the handbook) and have them measure from some collecting feature to an attack point? They could even use their compass from the attack point as a route choice to the control. Altho the specs as I understand them for a Yellow Course (most appropriate for the First Class Req) must have alternate route choices that do not require the use of compass.

SYITW!
Terradan Landchild
Eagle Scout 1969
WE1-492-90 Bear
President, CROC

Reference: Note from jacobi@parc.xerox.com

Just as a wierd idea: what about deals like: We map your boy scout camp if you let us use it once for one of our regular orienteering meet?

Hudson Valley Orienteering has already done things like this - e.g. Clear Lake (Boy) Scout Reservation and Edith Macy Conference Center (which used to be a Girl Scout camp). We actually get to use it more than just once - it is more like once each year, and when we have a big event at the Boy Scout Camp, they usually open up the snack bar and sell refreshments - a nice cooperative arrangement.

Stephen Stibler

Sid responded to me regarding the AP Hill jamboree. The map was from QOC and Silva Corp presented the courses and instruction....Ed Scott

In reference to the value of scouting as so well expressed by Paul Cole.....I don't think, or at least I really hope, that no one on the line feels that Scouting is an inferior organization that is doing harm to the boys that participate. I have been in some adult scouting capacity since 1980. Both my sons are Eagle Scouts. The frustration that I feel is from the way our sport is presentated by the mainstream Scouters. I'm sure that if the BSA canoeing program concentrated on 10 miles of portage and 1 mile of paddling, the canoe clubs of America would be upset as well. ...Ed Scott

Good post Micheal.

I have taught orienteering to scout leaders. It is not easy to teach them the orienteering sport. Among other problems the scout camps are as much in the boonies as any mapped are for orienteering, only, the scout camps I know are not mapped. (I mean not mapped for orienteering; there is a usgs map). Secondly, the time assigned to teach orienteering was at night in the dark... But since there is no reasonasble map, I didn't care and taught orienteering in the dark (Pun intended). Actually I didn't teach orienteering but working with a compass correctly. Doing that nicely already allows to tell about the orienteering sport and show enthusiasm for it. A few of those leaders later have been seen at a real orienteering meet; I'd consider that a success.

There are six million skills that we have to teach at scout leader courses. The orienteering sport is only one or two of them. So don't complain if there is not enough time assigned for it. But, lets do the best with the time there is. Thats also my defense if anybody asks me why I didn't map the camp; I had to prepare at least one million of those six million things...

Also, scouts need to learn real orienteering; not the orienteering sport we orienteers love. The skill they need is to not get lost on a long hikes with only poor usgs maps. (Of course one of the best way to learn real orienteering is to learn and get enthusiastic about the orienteering sport. But, those old fashioned precise compass bearings still do make sense, even if they have no place in the orienteering sport.

It is a pitty that a lot of older scout leaders do not know the orienteering sport but also believe they know everything about orienteering (Exactly like those army guys). But they are not stupid; they only don't know yet. They'll pick it up if we show it to them and if we make it possible within their constraints.

Why not send your orienteering newsletters to all local councils within the area of your meets. Use the phone book to find "Boy Scouts".

Get orienteers trained as merit badge counselers; these are the guys teaching the orienteering merit badge. The boys will pick up a list of counselors; if there is no orienteer teaching it, the boys will will not learn it from an orienteer...

Map Boy Scout camps. Set fixed courses. If its easy to use, it will be used. If the fixed courses are reasonably set up, the boys (and leaders in training) have a higher chance to use a reasonable course.

Just as a wierd idea: what about deals like: We map your boy scout camp if you let us use it once for one of our regular orienteering meet?

Be persistent, boy scouts are a good source of future orienteers, as well as orienteering is a good activity for boy scouts. Lastly, don't forget girl scouts.

Chris

Cole Paul writes: I'm sorry, but when I saw Mr. Tarradan's posting about "9 years of frustration," I had to post again. Just because the Boy Scouts of America as an institution does not have a reasonable orienteering program does not make it a bad group of people!
[stuff praising the scouts deleted ]
Paul Cole
USMAOC

Well put Paul! I would venture to say the the Scouts is one of the most successful and influential youth organizations in the USA.

My scouting years had a profound influence on my outlook of the world. In particular, my love - and respect- of the outdoors and so many outdoor activities is was directly shaped by my scouting experience.

Scouting also tough me about team work and discipline. At an age when my peers were staying home on weekends and watching T.V., groups of us were out cleaning the church grounds or building a monkey-bridge or going on overnight backpacking trips. Need I say more? By the time I was 14, the Scouts had had a direct positive influence on my life.

My father was a scout and he encouraged me to become a scout. When my children are of scouting age, rest assured that they will be scouts ( and I will be a scout master).

Bernard,
Hudson Valley Orienteering - New York City Chapter

Bob Putnam made some points: First, to teach compass use using protractor compasses is pedagogically unsound (also not so hot for grownups) whenever such instruction precedes outdoor experiences involving navigation by map reading.

This is MOSTLY true. Much of the original purposes for compass use dealt with dropping a shell on somebody's head a long way away (not the best thing to teach small children), and another STILL very important one -- finding an island the size of Bermuda in a place the size of the Atlantic. Granted, this is not a hot topic on this particular post office, but sea navigation is still a "find your position" and "follow your bearing" experience, and life and death (as well as winning the race) can ride on it. Listen to the guys on the America's Cup boats this week on ESPN. Lots of numbers and distances being called out.

In spite of all the fancy gear my boat has, the old Silva still sits in the front right pocket of my sail bag, just in case lightning pays a visit. Yes, O on the water sounds simple, but there's plenty to do, because in the water you never REALLY know where you are, once you figure out where you are, you're not there anymore, and once you get going in a direction you want to go you're not really going the direction you want to go, or the direction you think you're going. So there's plenty of fun to be had (and no poison ivy).

"We have every compass manufacturer (as far as I can tell, I may be wrong), to Blame for the misinformation about O' that is almost universal in the US."

Hmm. Them's fightin' words. I might add that to a hammer manufacturer, everything looks like a nail. Silva is just doing what they do best! Besides, nobody really READS the stuff they send you in the box...

Finally, some references to teaching and dissuading scouts from wanting to do the real stuff. You make some excellent points that I think need to be condensed into one simple topic: get trained teachers and a solid lesson plan, and you will have success. It's true of anything. There needs to be expert O people available, long in advance of planned events, and Proper Prior Planning must occur to pull off a memorable experience. Don't expect a Scoutmaster to put in hours and hours learning hard core orienteering when he has to concentrate on trivial things like keeping guns out of their hands and drugs out of their pockets. The Scoutmaster is a very busy man, and can't afford to put in that amount of effort.

John L. Edwards
Annapolis, MD, USA
edwardsj@jsc.mil
410.573.7592 Voice
410.573.7634 Fax

Mike Meenehan wrote: I could go on, but in closing, let your local districts (Scout roundtables are monthly program planning meetings for local scouters) know that you are a resource for them & make it easy for them to participate.

To which Doug Corkhill replied: Just wondering if anyone else has had the same experience with this as I have. I've been to monthly roundtables(meetings in a district or area of just adult leaders) and spoken about orienteering. I've been invited to speak, also made myself available to speak. I take O maps, schedules, talk about the differences between Oing and walking a straight line while pace counting(although I sometimes do that while Oing), give them the usual pep talk. We've seen very little response from Scout groups as a result of these efforts. Maybe its me. :-)

I second Doug's comments. As a club, we have put in a fair amount of effort to attract scouts to our events, with little success. We have made presentations at winter planning meeting, gone to "conventions", etc. We have had some interest, but not enough considering the effort we put in. And they always seem to want to have their own events, rather than coming to ours.

Any scoutmasters care to comment on this? What should we be doing?

- Philip Matthews
Ottawa Orienteering Club
philip@Newbridge.com

Paul Cole writes...I first learned about "real" orienteering at the 1985 National Scout Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill, Virginia. They.... I assume you were too young to realize it, but I believe the "they" you refer to was Quantico Orienteering Club not BSA. Can Sid or Don provide more details ??... Ed Scott

It was SILVA that was at the Jamboree, not QOC. They got an old copy of our 1:20,000 map and enlarge it to 1:10,000. Then they added a couple of courses to it. On the back, there was information about orienteering.

Sid Sachs

Philip Matthews (philip_matthews@qmail.Newbridge.COM) wrote:

Mike Meenehan wrote:

I could go on, but in closing, let your local districts (Scout roundtables are monthly program planning meetings for local scouters) know that you are a resource for them & make it easy for them to participate.

To which Doug Corkhill replied:

[snip]

We've seen very little response from Scout groups as a result of these efforts. Maybe its me. :-)

Any scoutmasters care to comment on this? What should we be doing?

One thing to remember is that the Troop calendar is put together for a year in advance. For example, my boy leaders will meet in about a month to plan the calendar for 1995-96. Last minute announcements will not work to attract troops to a meet. The other thing to remember is that the program decisions are made by the Scouts themselves. I can make suggestions, but if they don't buy it, it doesn't get put on the calendar.

Locally I became aware of the BAOC through a flyer at REI. At the time, I had one Scout who needed to finish up his last requirement for First Class, so I sent him to a meet. He had a great time and he wanted to do more. No one else did, so it fell flat.

I'm going to try something new this year, and you may want to try it also. There is a new (since about 1990) program for older Scouts called Venture Crew. It is an adjunct to the regular program to provide high adventure activities for the older Scouts to keep their interest in the program. Since we started it two years ago, we have lost only one older Scout, but several others stayed and earned their Eagle ranks.

Anyway, one of the possible Venture Crew activities is Orienteering. From the looks of the Venture Orienteering Book, it's "real" O. And the Venture Crew Chief (like a Patrol Leader) is that Scout who went to the BAOC meet a few years ago. Also, at last year's summer camp, we had six or seven Scouts earn Orienteering Merit Badge (I can't evaluate how "real" the O was) who will be old enough for Venture Crew by this summer.

The BAOC holds a Scout-O in November. I am going to suggest that the Venture Crew enter a few meets between now and November to train themselves so that they can compete in the Scout-O in November. (It helps to have that date well in advance of our planning meeting so that we don't plan another outing that weekend).

If this all comes to pass, I will let you know. In the meantime, try focusing on Venture Crew (every Scoutmaster needs something to keep his older Scouts interested). If you can get the older Scouts excited about O, they will excite the younger Scouts, and you're in.

Alan R. Houser ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley Troop 24 ** troop24@emf.net
** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html **

From the comments of Chris Jacobi.........Yes, the mapping of scout camps should be the first priority of any club wanting to introduce Scouts to the sport. With no map they have little choice but to continue their blind pace and compass games. One caution however about gaining permission to use the camp in exchange for the map...GET IT IN WRITING. One USOF club put personal time and money, club money, and USOF money into a map then after it was completed was denied use of the property. We (DVOA) have a current agreement wherein we get to use a camp property twice a year until the map is paid for, while they get to buy the map from us at cost as long as we can use the property. This gives us about two years to sell them on the idea of using the map, after which they are tied into us to continue to get it at cost. If anyone needs more data for their club ask....

.....And from Terradan regarding why we didn't do AP Hill the last time. There was talk if doing it and the plan fell through. If memory is correct the snag was from the BSA end not ours. Again I defer to Sid, please give us your historical perspective....

.....and from Terradan again...you burst my bubble with the story of sailing your compass into the woods before every scout presentation. I thought I was the only nut that did that. Do you ever let them catch you sifting through the leaves looking for it after the presentation is over? I have from time to time....

... and from Philip Matthews And they always seem to want to have their own events, rather than coming to ours. Yes, the old "if it's not invented here" syndrome. Only plan I have to attack that one is to plan your event way in advance. I do it out about a year with written publicity at least 9 months ahead......Ed Scott

Just my 2 cents...

I put 15 years into Girl Scouting, 4 as a girl and 11 as a leader. I made 3 black and white maps of council camps so my troop could orienteer when we went camping. I also provided orienteering whenever I was present at any multi-troop campout and offered free use of my GS camp O-maps to any leader via the council newsletter. I always included "how-to's" on orienteering, including merit badge requirement methods, whenever I sent out maps. There were takers, but the response was predictably underwhelming.

My REAL success in GS orienteering occurred accidentally. In 1982, I was asked by a council program rep, who knew of my "obsession," to do an orienteering course at a council-wide series of Father/Daughter weekends at one of the camps. Since this was the height of A-meet season and I couldn't be present for 2 of the 3 weekends, I had to figure a way to do it by remote control.

I put out a simple (Yellow F-14) course using orange painted plastic milk jugs with the control number painted on the jug in black and no punches. On the back of the map I had a blurb on how to orienteer, emphasizing following handrails and route choice, but also how to use a compass. My husband and I gave beginner instruction the first weekend only, after that it was strictly self-guided.

Orienteering was a big hit (but rated 2nd to making corn-husk dolls). Fathers and daughters who did not sign up for it changed their programs to include orienteering after hearing about it from early participants. After the 3 weekends, the council rep decided to leave the milk jugs in the woods and the remaining maps with instructions on the back with the camp ranger. It became a permanent course until the jugs self-destructed that winter and I heard from 2 troop leaders who used it successfully. The next Spring, I went out and retreived the jugs and designed a new course for the Father/Daughter weekends the following Autumn. I left scouting before the 3rd year's event.

A couple of years ago, I learned my course was still being used at the Father/Daughter weekends, over 10 years after I designed it. A clubmate of mine, who's wife is now a GS leader, was recruited by council for assistance. He was amazed to be given a map with a course and instructions on it already prepared for the event.

The moral of this story is that I accidently made it EASY for the GS council to do a fun, correct orienteering event THEMSELVES, and apparently they are still using it correctly.

Of course, I'm told that O-map is now pretty out-of-date. The system ain't perfect.

Robin Shannonhouse

GSUSA has an Interest Project (like merit badges) on orienteering. I take my Cadettes every once in a while too. And I know our local group is regularly visited by BSA and GSUSA competitors.

Ann Bilbrey (D3482@Applelink.apple.com) wrote:

Hey guys... Have you tried the Girl Scouts? I would love to have someone out at a Service Unit Campout. Anyone interested from the Chicagoland area?
Ann Bilbrey
D3482@Applelink.apple.com

I'll second that. Anyone in the Pioneer Valley in Mass who is interested in working with GSUSA could contact me by email.

Sara
Western Mass GS Council Volunteer
scrawley@acad.umass.edu

"Philip Matthews" wrote:

I second Doug's comments. As a club, we have put in a fair amount of effort to attract scouts to our events, with little success. We have made presentations at winter planning meeting, gone to "conventions", etc. We have had some interest, but not enough considering the effort we put in. And they always seem to want to have their own events, rather than coming to ours.

Any scoutmasters care to comment on this? What should we be doing?
- Philip Matthews
Ottawa Orienteering Club
philip@Newbridge.com

Hey guys...
Have you tried the Girl Scouts? I would love to have someone out at a Service Unit Campout. Anyone interested from the Chicagoland area?

Ann Bilbrey
D3482@Applelink.apple.com

From: jacobi@parc.xerox.com (Christian Jacobi) [deletions] Also, scouts need to learn real orienteering; not the orienteering sport we orienteers love. The skill they need is to not get lost on a long hikes with only poor usgs maps. (Of course one of the best way to learn real orienteering is to learn and get enthusiastic about the orienteering sport. But, those old fashioned precise compass bearings still do make sense, even if they have no place in the orienteering sport.

In recent years I have led wilderness hikes in wild parts of Italy (They do exist, particularly in Sardinia) using the Italian 1:25000 IGM (military maps), either the 1960 editions or in some cases the archaic-looking 1930's editions. The contour lines were about the only things that were still there. Before I learnt competitive orienteering I would have had *no chance at all* of using these maps successfully. As an orienteer I positively enjoyed using them for routefinding. And I didn't take a single compass bearing!

[deletions]
Be persistent, boy scouts are a good source of future orienteers, as well as orienteering is a good activity for boy scouts. Lastly, don't forget girl scouts.

Yes! In Italy they are just called Scouts, and boys and girls belong to the same groups.

Mark.

Mark Sylvester, Duino, Trieste, Italy.

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 95 21:55 PDT
Subject: Re: Orienteering and the BSA
Reference: Notes from jacobi@parc.xerox.com and stephen stibler

Just as a wierd idea: what about deals like: We map your boy scout camp if you let us use it once for one of our regular orienteering meet?
Hudson Valley Orienteering has already done things like this ...

We have done this at Cascade with good results. We get to use the map once or twice a year. They make overnight accomodations available for the staff at no cost, and we get a good Scout turnout. They have just bought a large adjacent area, and it will make a good 1:15000 map when we get it mapped. We also have put in a trim course which is popular. We hope to map a second camp shortly. I think there are lots of opportunities with the Scouts if we just approach it correctly.

Bruce McAlister

In article <950419191852_89054315@aol.com>, wrote:

[ stuff deleted ]
... and from Philip Matthews>>>And they always seem to want to have their own events, rather than coming to ours.>>> Yes, the old "if it's not invented here" syndrome. Only plan I have to attack that one is to plan your event way in advance. I do it out about a year with written publicity at least 9 months ahead......Ed Scott

One problem I've heard about from a Pa. Cub Scout leader with whom I work is that he tries to get kids interested in coming to the DVOA scouting events, but that most kids are tied up with Little League ball (and I imagine soccer in the fall). O-ing with my kids is an important part of our time together, and I am certainly not going encourage them to switch their weekends to baseball or soccer. I can see where the interaction between kids that a team sport affords is a valid attraction, though. Most younger kids go out, as ours do, with their parents. Do you think there would be enough interest to support some kid-team activities (like relays)? One of the reasons I don't volunteer often is that the weekend is about the only chance I get to spend much time with my kids. I'd be a lot more able to volunteer for some activity that my kids wanted to be involved in.

Take care.

Dale Parson, Bell Labs, Allentown

Why don't we show up? Generally because we do not become aware of your events in time. Most of us are planning our calendars months or years in advance, and there is not often very much opportunity to put in an activity we find out about a few weeks or days in advance of the event.

If you want Scout Groups to show up, you will need to make the Scouts aware of who you are, where you are, how to get in touch with you, and what your activity calendar is for the entire coming year.

Most Scout Councils/Regions/Districts publish newsletters and would be delighted to have your participation as contributors. You will need to talk to them about doing so, though...

If you want to get Scouts really interested in "real" orienteering, you ought to find members of your clubs who would be interested in offering their skills and time to teach orienteering to them on a Troop activity basis throughout the year.

The Scout Districts and Councils in your area also run Leader training courses, where leadership and Scouting skills are taught to the adults. You could offer to train the Leaders on how to build courses - and how to teach orienteering to kids.

It's all well and good to open your events to Scouting, but there is a very high frustration index involved for kids whose Leaders simply do not have the knowledge or skills to teach "real" orienteering.

All of this said - my Scout Groups (and there have been several in several different countries) have all participated in club orienteering events. Most of the events have been well-organised and highly enjoyable. There have been a few (thankfully rare) occasions, though, where I had to do considerable "pumping-up" after an event where the Scouts were not made to feel welcome as a result of not being dyed-in-the-wool orienteers. This is something that you have to keep in mind, as well. When you are hoping to have Scouts involved in one of your events, there are going to be several Scout Groups who will not participate simply because they assume they do not have enough skills to have even the slightest prayer of doing well. Most Scout Leaders do not like to set their kids up to fail, and some of them will feel that a competitive event is too far beyond their kids' skills. This is a lack of knowledge about the sport that you can counteract, given the motivation and a little time.

I have a long involvement with orienteering, and it began with some good experiences I had at competitive events I attended as a Scout in Canada. Experienced orienteers helped me to build on my skills and made me feel welcome. Some of them came to some of our weekly meetings occasionally to teach map and compass skills, with an introduction to competitive orienteering for the newer Scouts. They made it fun for us, and made us feel welcome at their events. Have you done the same yet?

How about an event weekend where the members of your club put on a "teaching competition" where experienced folks compete with as leaders of a small group of Scouts, teaching the "tricks of the trade" as they go?

Put a little effort into advocating orienteering for the Scouts in your area, and I don't think you will ever have any trouble getting them to participate in the future.

The ball is in your court...

Norman

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